Wednesday, August 19, 2009

2.01 Man of Science, Man of Faith

Follow along! The episode guide for "Man of Science, Man of Faith," is in Finding Lost, pp. 163-170.

I know there was a reason I adored this episode but for some reason it's slipped my mind... just give me a minute while I flip through my notes that I was making while watching.

"Roses are red
Violets are blue
Drop the gun, bruthah
Do I know you?"

No, that's not it. Wait, maybe this is the answer:


What's THAT doing there? Here are some more scribblings...

I ♥ Desmond I ♥ Desmond I ♥ Desmond I ♥ Desmond

Nikki Stafford-Hume
Nikki Hume
Desmond Stafford

No, that can't be it. Ooh, wait! Found it!

"Episode opens with Desmond's eye, then Desmond in underwear, then Desmond working out with no shirt, then Desmond in the shower. Could there BE a more perfect opening? No."

Ah. That was the reason...

Fun things I noticed:
• I’ve never noticed until now (duh) that Desmond does his morning routine at night. Locke and Jack are setting up the dynamite as Desmond is doing his “morning” workout routine, shower, and breakfast. I’m assuming he didn’t do one long sleep, but probably takes a couple of naps during the day as well; after all, he has to be up every 108 minutes all night long (it’s like having a newborn!!)
• Locke corrects Kate’s grammar – yet one more reason why I love him. :)
• Hurley’s conversation with Jack was HILARIOUS.
• Kate appears to be wearing the same striped shirt she was wearing on the way to the Black Rock, but didn’t she hand that one over to Doc Arzt right before he blew it up? Or was that a different shirt? (Man… my memory can’t even last two episodes these days…)
• When was Desmond almost a doctor?
• Did I mention I ♥ Desmond?
• I’ve never understood why, after the explosion of the hatch at the end of S2, all that was left was a rather small crater, when you consider the extensiveness of that station. Maybe what we saw was just the entry point that had opened into a crater, and the rest of it just filled in?
• Why would Jack instinctively hold a gun to Locke?
• Jack: “I’m intense.” Understatement of the century.

Things that have new meaning:
• Kate tells Jack in the S1 finale that she’ll have his back, but then she follows Locke back to the hatch. Will she turn on him in the S6 premiere after promising to have his back in the S5 finale?
• We now know that the other guy in the SUV was Shannon’s father, and Jack chose to let him die. But that scene always made me wonder – why was there ONE PERSON in all of emergency who knew how to intubate someone?? Isn’t that just a common thing that just about every ER intern, nurse, and doctor is supposed to be able to do? (Keep in mind I got all of my knowledge about working in an emergency room from ER.)
• It was really creepy for me watching Locke lower Kate down into the hatch after watching Juliet drop into the original shaft in “The Incident.”
• The beam of light that suddenly shoots up when Kate is almost at the bottom is exactly the same kind of beam we saw in “The Little Prince,” when Sawyer and Locke see it rise into the air.
• Desmond tells Jack, “You have to lift it up,” and it’s one of those lines I’ve never forgotten, looking for the significance of it ever since. What could he mean? Considering in “The Incident” Jack’s actions were more along the lines of “dropping it down,” I’d think he did the opposite of Desmond’s suggestion.
• Seeing that cemented-in electromagnetism has a WHOLE new meaning post-S5.
• It’s interesting to watch Jack taunt Locke about his destiny talk. While he did it in S1, this is the first time it takes on a “Nyah, nyah” tone, like Jack’s thinking what has happened proves Locke wrong. This is the tone he’ll continue to take for the rest of the season (and beyond).


Joan Crawford said...

I saw Nikki and Desmond totally making out! "Aye luhv yoo, Nik-eh" is what he kept saying.

Marebabe said...

For people who may not be aware, it's true that married ladies have crushes! And it's extra nice when those married ladies have understanding husbands. :)

Jazzygirl said...

Oh how I thought of Nikki when I watched this! However, I did think they gave Desmond a rather maniacal look. LOL I don't think he has his cuteness factor until he cleans up.
Yes, I kept thinking of the finale of S5 throughout this whole episode. I kept thinking about Juliet. And I kept thinking "how did they build this thing with all the magnestism?" I mean, the incident MUST do something to stop the magnetism and allow them to pour the cement and finish building, no?

tiasabita said...

Even tho I knew it was Dez holding that gun to John's head I still got the OMG feeling when they revealed his face, his maniacal face! (jazzygirl!) And I don't think I could've had a drink from a strange man's water bottle even if he was a sexy foreigner!

I just love the look on John's face when he and Jack first peer down into the hatch. It says, 'Oh boy, a new toy. Can we play with it now, Mom?'

Could anyone else be so cool and concerned about other peoples' sprained ankles if they thought they may be paralyzed? Not I!

Also noticed two other numbers - sorry if this is old news! '8' on the crash cart when Jack is looking at Sara in the bed and the seats they show when Jack and Dez are running - '15'.

Thanks to ABC for making all the seasons available again!

Nikki Stafford said...

I have to agree on the maniacal. In fact, I can't take my eyes off his right eye -- it's always more open than the other one, like it's not real. Yikes, does Desmond have a glass eye?! ;)

Joan Crawford said...

Hey, Nikki, maybe you can bid on Desmond's glass eye at the Lost auction! Ha! Have your husband shut one eye and then lay it over his eyelid! Haha! I hope other people find that funny and not just weird...

The Question Mark said...

You may have some competition, Nikki- my mom hearts Desmond too!

The opening fo this episode has always been one of my all-time favourite Lost moments. And what a great song! Darlton are great for picking these sweet, old school songs that sound all happhy and innocent but then could really take a dark turn when played in the particular context of "LOST". Well done!

Also, i have a CONCERN/QUESTION:

Back when everyone was planning on setting a trap for Ethan and whatnot, people were refusing to give Charlie a gun on the grounds of him being inexperienced with the weapon. Sayid also shunned Kate to the "kids' table" before he was aware that she could operate a firearm...
Now, we know that Sayid was a soldier, Locke used to hunt a lot, and Sawyer & Kate led the colorful lifestyles that involved guns, so that made them obvious choices to carry a gun, right?
Well, then...
He lords the guns over everyone as if he were heading up his own little Island N.R.A., but nobody ever stops once and says, "Jack, you're a spinal surgeon, WTF are you doing a gun?" And the way he points his gun around al the time in his holier-than-thou manner, especially at poor Locke in this ep and Desmond later on, I can't help but wonder at what point in time Dr. J traded in his scalpel for a 9mm.
It just always seemed weird to me.

variabull said...

Does Desmond recognize Locke in "Man of Science, Man of Faith."?

For our survivors "whatever happened, happened", seems to be the rule (up until now, season 6 who knows ???) Faraday has stated that Desmond is immune to this rule. In "Flashes Before Your Eyes" when Desmond turns the Swan's "fail-safe" key his 2004 Island consciousness is apparently transported or projected to 1996. He has all the memories he has accumulated in his life up to the point of turning the key, although they seem fragmented or unclear. We later find out he sees (or has seen) flashes of the future after turning the key. After experiencing what appears to be two days in 1996 he returns to 2004 after being hit on the head. He relates the memory of those experiences to Charlie and Hurley. Does he now have two memories of what happened those two days in 1996? Did the new memories (conversations with Donovan, Hawking, Charlie) supplant the old ones? Or was what we see in Flashes always the way it happened, and in that case would Desmond remember Locke because he was able to tell BMF Donovan about the crazy Island of hatches, and pushing the button? Two memories would suggest Desmond was able to change the past (Donovan may have relayed Desmond's Island story to Penny or perhaps even Faraday) and would also explain the two copies of the polaroid?? portrait of Desmond and Penny.

As for the "lift it up" from Desmond to Jack at the stadium in 2000/2001? that seems similar to Charlie's conversation with Kate about Jack "pulling me up after I was dead" and Sawyer's comment to Kate after she got on top of him "where were you 4 years ago when I first made this wish". I suppose at least the Sawyer comment suggest a 2004/2008 time loop. We'll see.

So wasn't Desmond a little REM sleep deprived after 44 days of 108 minute naps?

Joan Crawford said...

@ Variabull - I have wondered about the Penny in the picture "mistake". I wonder if it was a production error (like Charlie saying he couldn't swim) or, if all the way back then, the writers knew they were going to do this "alternate time line" thing in season 6?

Susan said...

Question Mark, lots of people learn how to shoot guns, but have careers that have nothing to do with guns. (Maybe Jack learned how to shoot because he's a rich doctor and wanted protection from robbery?)

Joan, I think that Sonia Wa...(OK sorry I've forgotten her last name) hadn't been cast for Penny yet so they just had someone else do the pic with Desmond. In my DVDs the picture has been corrected to include the "real" Penny that we know.

I have to comment on John sending Kate down first. His stated reasons make sense, but seeing how he couldn't even wait till morning to go down the hatch, why did he send Kate first? It just seems a little inconsistent to me.

variabull said...

For Joan Crawford

Lostpedia has a Darlton Podcast suggesting there are 2 or multiple copies of the Des/Pen photo because of Desmond's change(s) of the timeline. Desmond has one he "constantly" carries around with him (sailboat, hatch, helicopter) and Penny had one on her nightstand. Naomi had a photocopy of the original from an unknown source. After Sonya Walger was recast the photo from "Orientation" was redone. By the way there is a male contingent of at least one, who feels the same way about Ms Walger as Nikki does about the time-traveling Scottsman.

It has been suggested by Mrs. Hawking that the Swan had apocalyptic potential. Why did Dharma allow just two guys resetting the computer button. Even a ICBM silo in the 70's had better safeguards than that. The Swan was just an accident waiting to happen. Supposedly Dharma's funding source pulled the plug several years before the purge. That, with what little we know just seems insane. It also isn't clear to me how much knowledge the Others had of what was going on in the Swan. They did have access to surveillance of the Swan but Juliet seemed to dismiss what Desmond was doing (season 5 episode) as some sort of big cosmic joke if I remember that plot point correctly.

So Desmond was suicidal until Locke started pounding on the hatch (he could hear that but not the trebuchet...must be a heavy 108 minute sleeper) so why wait for them to blow open the hatch. If your choices are suicide and taking a chance on a meet-and-greet with our survivors or even the "hostiles", I just don't get it.

Anonymous said...

Okay, I just have to throw the "B.S." flag on Jack and Desmond remembering each other. They had a two-minute conversation as complete strangers and have not seen each other since then. In the meantime, Jack "fixed" Sarah, married her and divorced her. YEARS have passed. If you brought in a line-up of the last ten strangers I had brief conversations with only DAYS or WEEKS earlier, I don't think I'd remember a single one. ESPECIALLY if the last time I saw the person, they acted and looked normal and this time they were acting like a crazed maniac with a gun.

Sorry, not plausible, unless both Jack and Desmond have eidetic memories.

Susan said...

Right studiorose that's the argument I use when people say Danielle should remember Jin.

Marebabe said...

@studiorose: I made a trip to the dictionary for "eidetic". Good word! As my husband likes to say, you learn something new every time you pay attention. :)

Regarding the flash of recognition between Jack and Desmond, I always totally bought it because it was triggered by Desmond saying "Brother" in his distinctive and inimitable way. (Love his accent!) Jack didn't remember Desmond until he spoke that line. Now, I'll admit, Desmond had less to go on in remembering Jack, but maybe he's something of a super-genius, with an eidetic memory, as you suggested. That's the ticket! All the ladies love Desmond for his MIND!

Fred said...

Simple question, how many times does your computer crash? Mine, at least once a day. Older computers I worked on didn't seem so bad, but then they did crash every so often. And he's running DOS on that system (or QDOS--quick and dirty operating system). I'd have expected to see the island littered with plane wrecks.

I loved this episode, but it only makes sense with Orientation. This episode takes up Jack's POV, while Orientation takes up Locke's POV. We see the same things but with slight shifts of perspective. And how different it really looks. This episode in a word is "paranoia", while the Locke-centric episode certainly isn't. This certainly tells us something about Jack, not just that he's intense, but he a real control freak. Locke summed it up when he and Kate were walking back to the caves, about what they all saw at the Black Rock, and Locke asks what did Jack see. Similiarly, when Hurley gives his long talk about the numbers, all Jack focuses on was that Hurley was in a mental ward.

We've also focused so much on Locke being the man of faith, that we have to remember Desmond is also a man of faith (failed as we will learn). After all he is the one discussing miracles with Jack.(Actually, we will see a lot of men of faith).

Anonymous said...

My favourite part of this episode is the way it has forever given "Make You Own Kind Of Music" an eerie tinge. I love watching Jack advance down the hallway, gun in hand, and suddenly get hit with a spotlight and loud pop music. Just imagine his utter bewilderment. He would have had no idea what to expect going into the hatch, but it sure as hell wasn't that.

In Australia, Channel 7 (which shows Lost) put together a season 2 promo featuring the song, with all these awesome clips of stuff like Sawyer, Michael and Jin being dragged through the jungle in the tailies' net. Soooo awesomly creepy.

Nikki Stafford said...

@Fred: I'd have expected to see the island littered with plane wrecks.

The imagery you just put in my head just made me laugh for about 2 minutes. I LOVE this comment!! Haha... I know that my computer would have ended the world, rather than saved it. And sheesh, if it had been a Mac, it would have been worse (yes, I'm just goading a certain someone on here...) ;)

studiorose: One of my biggest nitpicks at the beginning of season 1 was that Jack and Desmond remembered each other. I just didn't buy it. And I remember talking to SO many fans who really did. So now I can't remember if I included it as a nitpick in my book (it might not be with these episodes, but a little later when Jack doesn't remember someone else, yet remembers THIS guy) but it's always bugged me. Maybe because it was such a low point for him?

It's more believable to me that Desmond eventually remembers Jack, but it takes him some time to do so. Both of them were at crucial moments in their lives -- Jack having a crisis of not-faith, and Desmond had JUST seen Penny in the parking lost, if you'll recall, and told her that he had to leave to get back his honour.

However, @Susan, I actually DO believe that Danielle should have remembered Jin. He's the first person she sees on the island; he was with her and her crew for probably close to 12 hours. He then disappeared suddenly right before her eyes, vanishing into thin air. Then, two months later, he suddenly reappears, and then poof, disappears again. THAT's gotta be someone who sticks with you. ;) On an island of mystery, she might have thought he was associated with the monster somehow, since he clearly seemed to be supernatural.

The reason I find it 100% believable that she DOESN'T remember him, though, is her state of mind. Every inconsistency in her can be chalked up to that. :)

grubstreet: I agree... the way that music is all echoey as Jack is coming down the hall is awesome. I always have this song in my head for a few days after seeing this ep. :)

variabull: I always took Desmond's specialness, as Daniel saw it, as the way that he's working on a different timeline, similar to ours. Despite meeting Daniel in 2004 when he banged on the hatch door, he will only remember that meeting in 2007, when his subjective timeline and Daniel's are at the same spot. Similarly, he won't retain any memories of Jack until Jack makes them happen much later. That's how I saw it. He's the only one who has that strange detached timeline, because he's unstuck in time.

Susan said...

I still don't think Danielle would have remembered Jin because she never spent much time with him in 2004. He was in a group of 40-some people, he didn't go on the Black Rock, Staff, or radio tower missions. If she noticed him at all, she may have thought, Hmm he looks like that guy from 16 years ago, but she wouldn't have thought he was the same guy because he appeared to be the same age.

As for Jack and Desmond, like you pointed out Nikki both of them had experienced almost life-changing moments, so maybe the details stuck in their heads. Notice how both of them only recognized the other when they heard a certain word -- Jack when he heard "brotha" and Desmond when he heard "running."

Nikki Stafford said...

Susan: Ah, I'm sorry, now I see what you're saying -- that Rousseau was never really in the vicinity of Jin and didn't really see him in the group in 2004. You're right. However, if she did, I think if she DID have any memory of the guy from 1988, she wouldn't question the fact he hadn't aged because she would naturally assume him to be supernatural anyway. :)

Austin Gorton said...

It was really creepy for me watching Locke lower Kate down into the hatch after watching Juliet drop into the original shaft in “The Incident.”

Yeah, didn't make that connection AT ALL. That's really awesome.

This episode (and Orientation) always remind me of a ton of little Dharma-related questions I really hope get answered next season, but I fear won't. Stuff like how the facility was completed in the wake of the incident, why Dharma decided to couple the "push the button or we all die" purpose of the Swan with the observational experiments (especially since pushing the button WAS so important; why not staff it with more people), how Radzinsky got down there, how they survived and/or never learned about the Purge, etc. etc. I fear most of that will get overlooked in the final season.

Man, Desmond really is awesome. I may not be as entranced by his sexiness as the ladies are, but he's still my favorite Lost character.

Rebecca T. said...

I have always wondered what would have happened if Jack had saved Rutherford instead of Sarah. It would have had HUGE implications on, not only his life, but also Shannon's. Interesting to think about.

Where DOES Vincent go when he disappears? Is he running messages for someone ;P

Walt all wet and appearing in the jungle is probably the creepiest thing on this show for me.

Hurley had the best lines, but seriously, "Really? Wow. Usually you're like Mr. Haha," takes the cake.

You know, Christian really was a good doctor (aside from the whole alcoholic thing, of course.)

The revisit of "Live Together, Die Alone" made me ponder.... Locke is always wandering off, doing his own thing and he's the one that ends up seriously dead. Hmmmmmmmm..

Locke's line to Kate, "I was waiting for you." is CREEPY!

When Des and Jack are talking in the flashback, Desmond asks very intently, "What if you did fix her?" and reiterates it and my brain came up with a crazy theory... what if Desmond (through his words or time travel or specialness in some way) healed Sarah? I don't know how that would work, but it just seems so odd the way he's so insistent when he doesn't know the situation.

Austin Gorton said...

Is he running messages for someone

...I've never thought of that before. But it makes a lot of sense.

I really like that idea.

Anonymous said...

Vincent as a ringer? Interesting idea! So the "real" Vincent perished in the crash, and this one was sent by the Others - no, wait - Jacob - no, wait - Windham - to spy on the Losties and report back at various intervals.

It would explain why he keeps disappearing. And unlike a human spy, he doesn't have to come up with some story about where he's been.

Anonymous said...

D'oh! Not "Windham" - Widmore. Sheez. ::goes to get more caffeine::

Kate said...

Pretty much all of my comments have already been said too, but--I have to say that the lowering-into-the-hatch scene is one of my favorites in the show alongside the Jin head-spin scene from "Do No Harm". This one makes a little more sense than that one though. =P

Just the way it was filmed, the intensity of it--especially the first time. Oh my gosh! I remember I was literally jumping around in my seat, huge evil grin on my face, completely hyped up on adrenaline--I just LOVE those sorts of intense scenes and Lost does them SO BRILLIANTLY. Down the music and timing of every line, every shot and angle, not to mention the actors performances--GAH, chills all over my body just thinking about it.

Anyway, that was my geek moment of the day. That was just such a great scene.

And that moment when the line slips and Kate falls a little and screams and Locke says "Are you okay?" and then Kate says "yeah, but I think--" and like .02 seconds later he's lowering again and she's like "okayyyy--guess we're gonna keep going then." reminds me of the scene in the Season One finale where Hurley is shouting "don't light the fuse!!!" and Locke just does it anyway, quickly before Hurley can get to him. I think this is the transformation that really takes the kind, caring Locke who made Claire the cradle on her birthday out and replaces it with this driven, outwardly caring but inwardly completely self (or maybe "island") driven Locke. He may have asked "are you okay" but as opposed to season one Locke where he might actually have been concerned, now his mind is wholly set on "is the object I'm using to discover this hatch's secrets broken or still usable?" not actually concerned with Kate's well-being as shown when he cuts off her comment that maybe they should stop by simply continuing to lower he back down. While I don't like Locke at all as a "person", I think he's fascinating as a character. It's so interesting to see his entire being just being remade as he spends more time on this island. Clearly none of it is coincidence. Someone ("Anti-Jacob") has been setting him up from birth...really even before that, to become the shell of his plan to murder Jacob. Maybe Locke was weak-minded because of all his anger and everything he'd been put through (which I doubt those things were just coincidences either) and thus he able to be transformed easily into the perfect too for executing "the island's destiny". By the time he dies off island--there is so little of the John Locke we first met in the crash left in him!

Anonymous said...

"...outwardly caring but inwardly completely self (or maybe "island") driven Locke."

This sums up Locke perfectly. I pity him, but he's completely selfish and driven by his own deluded spirit quest.

People call Jack a dick, but at least he GENUINELY cares about other people.

humanebean said...

Ooooh, Nikki! NOW you've gone and done it!

Shall I point out the Hatch computer has been most often compared to a Mac? From Lostpedia: "The main unit appears to be an Apple II Plus running an Apple III monitor. " You see, that's why it's still working thirty years later! ; ]

Don't MAKE me serve up some more of those awesome thundershowers in Toronto yesterday .... beware the Wrath of the Mac! It knows when it's being mocked.

Susan said...

@ Katey and Grubsreethack -- spot-on descriptions of John.

I see him as someone who has spent his whole life trying to be important or special. When he landed on the island, healed, he realized he could use his hunting/tracking skills to serve the group and be important to their survival. Then he was the first to realize the specialness of the island, and he spends the next 2-3 seasons trying to figure out what the island wants from him.

He has his moments of genuine caring, but as the series progresses, more and more of it is about himself. He's a very complex, interesting, sometimes likeable sometimes not, character, very well-acted by O'Quinn.

Narte said...

Remember, technically the hatch imploded not exploded due to the magnetism, which is why the crater isn't the size of the whole hatch.

Anonymous said...

It struck me watching John lower Kate into the hatch that he seems to get other people to do his dirty work for him. He had Boone climb up to investigate the beach craft, he had Sawyer kill his father for him, and he convinces Kate that she should be the first one down into the dark, scary hatch. I am liking him less and less during this re-watch; he's just not seeming as special as he is selfish and narrow minded.

JennM said...

@ StudioRose: Maybe Jack remembers Desmond because the whole day is extremely significant for him. As for Desmond remembering Jack, maybe he had time to replay conversations had before he embarked on the race around the world during the three years he spent in the hatch. I never found it weird that they remembered each other after all this time:)

@Nikki: I couldn't agree more—HELLOOOOOO DESMOND! :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Narte: Regarding the implosion/explosion... throughout most of my books, I've referred to it as the im/explosion or the implosion/explosion. While it would have appeared to have imploded (as you say, things were sucked IN to the crater, and not out), the hatch door blew off, which would indicate an explosion. Desmond was thrown clear of it, as were Locke and Eko. On the show, some characters have referred to it as an explosion, some an implosion. I don't think anyone know what it really was. So it's up for debate what happened. But I'm with you... I typically refer to it as an implosion (though in the S5 book I probably referred to it as an explosion, since that's how they referred to it on the show).

The Rush Blog said...

It’s interesting to watch Jack taunt Locke about his destiny talk. While he did it in S1, this is the first time it takes on a “Nyah, nyah” tone, like Jack’s thinking what has happened proves Locke wrong. This is the tone he’ll continue to take for the rest of the season (and beyond).

Jack's tone that Locke was wrong will finally end by Season Five or Six. And two, Locke was wrong about a good number of things - including the hatch.