Wednesday, January 13, 2010

5.12 Dead Is Dead

Follow along! The episode guide for “Dead Is Dead” is in Finding Lost — Season 5, pp. 173-182, followed by an examination of the smoke monster on pp. 183-187.

Quick note: I’m just going to post this one tonight and I’ll post Some Like It Hoth and The Variable tomorrow night. When I try to think of the standout episode of season 5, this is usually the one that comes to mind (aside from that finale, of course). My favourite aspects of season 5 are the Ben/Locke/Widmore moments, and to have all three of them in one episode? JOY…

Fun things I noticed:
• Does anyone else think 40-year-old Chuck Widmore is hot? In a Bill Sykes kinda way? Ok, let me start again… did anyone else think Oliver Reed as Bill Sykes was kinda hot? Have I revealed way too much about myself here?
• I LOVE the scene where Ben lies to Caesar and we know he’s lying… it’s like watching a master at work.
• Ben tells Locke one thing, Sun another. Who do you think he’s lying to? And why?
• Ben’s hurt a LOT of people, so why, of all people, does he think of Desmond the moment before he thinks he’s going to die? I still wonder if someone took Charlie out of the waiting room when Penny went in to see Desmond in the hospital.

Things that have new meaning:
• BEST moment: “What’s about to come out of that jungle is something I can’t control.” Rustle, rustle… Locke emerges. I remember laughing and laughing at the time (Ben thinks Smokey is going to step out) but now, in light of the finale, it takes on a new, much darker tone. For what comes out of the jungle IS something he can’t control.
• Locke says, “I assure you, Sun, I’m the same man I’ve always been.” But he’s not… there’s definitely something significant in this line beyond its irony later. Is it possible there’s always been some connection between the Man in Black and Locke?
• In the only time we ever see Not-Locke get unhinged, he freaks out on Ben in the jungle asking him if he likes not knowing anything and always having to be led around by someone else. Then he says, “Now you know what it was like to be me.” Think of that line from the mouth of the Man in Black… he was clearly led around by Jacob, who seems to have controlled him in some way like a prisoner.
• I say this in my book, but notice how Locke, Alex, and Smokey are never in the same room together (this one’s for the Canadians: he’s like Polkaroo!!). Could this be an indicator that they’re all the same entity?
• Ben says, “It let me live.” Could living be the ultimate punishment? Is it possible Smokey actually showed Eko mercy by killing him?


Marebabe said...

I’ve often heard it said that one of the cool things about Lost is how it encourages fans to read new books and ponder questions of philosophy, science, and religion, and research things in order to better understand the subtle complexities of the story. No doubt! Well, this week, my quest for knowledge had me dragging my huge World Atlas down off the shelf to check the position of Hawaii in relation to the equator. Because, my fellow Lost fans, I observed that when Ben reached his hand into that murky water and watched it drain away, the water was swirling CLOCKWISE, the way it does south of the equator. (Right, Batcabbage?) I double-checked here, and as of this morning in North America, the water spins counter-clockwise on its way down the drain.

This is deeply weird. The show is filmed on location in Hawaii, which is way north of the equator, so that water should’ve been swirling counter-clockwise. Right? Or am I slowly going insane? The only reason I was paying attention to such a tiny detail was that I was looking for a clue regarding the Island’s location. Because this is an island that moves around, I thought maybe we could at least narrow it down to which hemisphere it was in on that day. Did Damon and Carlton sneak Michael Emerson and a second unit crew down to Australia for the filming of this one scene? Just so they could embed this extremely obscure Easter egg into the story? I am perplexed. (By the way, why do people refer to Hawaii as being in the South Pacific, when it is so far north of the equator?)

I do not understand Ben’s statement to Danielle as he was leaving with Baby Alex: “If you want your child to live, every time you hear whispers, you run the other way!” More perplexity, on several levels. Maybe he (kindly) wanted to warn her away from the danger associated with the whispers, and he used the idea that she could somehow protect her stolen baby to emphasize the warning and encourage her to take him seriously and RUN. Also, my take on the whispers has always been that they surround a person, so it would be hard to know WHICH way to run. I guess you should just pick a direction and get out of there!

Marebabe said...

A week or two ago, someone commented that the top of NotLocke’s eye scar was missing, so I was watching closely in this episode. It’s faint, and it seems to come and go, depending on the light in any given scene. I think it was visible roughly half the time.

I found it rather shocking, the way Ben just hauls off and shoots Caesar. That’s one way to resolve an argument. “Consider that my apology.” (Great economy of words there, Ben!) And I guess it’s OK to have a sawed-off shotgun in your airline luggage, as long as you check it. Anybody here ever fired a sawed-off shotgun? Because I have. ONCE. The kick is brutal, and once was plenty for me!

Ghost Alex slamming Ben up against the wall was like Ghost Christian being able to pick up Baby Aaron. Just noticing similarities, trying to learn the “rules” concerning these mysterious beings.

Nikki, in your book, you mentioned Ben’s Pee-Wee Herman wig. But to me, that will always be his Hitler wig! :) And you also brought up another fascinating thing, about the fact that in the end credits we see “Young Charlie”. So I got to the end credits and did a freeze-frame and studied it a little bit. It’s interesting that there are two other children in this episode, and they are listed as Young Ethan and Young Alex. So I thought maybe the person in charge of producing the credits got carried away and used the word “young” one time too many. But then I remembered that we see Desmond and Penny’s son again in “The Variable”, and the credits for that episode also list the character as Young Charlie. VERY interesting. You wrote: “Could this be a hint that Charlie Pace is Desmond’s son?” That’s just crazy enough to work!! I know one thing. If this turns out to be true, it will make JOpinionated very happy. She has long theorized that Young Charlie will somehow grow up to be Charlie Pace.

And for more “deliciously whackadoo” theorizing on the subject, check out the musings of Andrew Wilmar (aka Big Mouth) over at Eye M Sick. On December 22nd, he posted an article entitled “The Widmore Family Circle”, which lays out a theory that Young Charlie will grow up to be none other than MacCutcheon-swilling Charles Widmore. In this theory, he is his own grandpa! All of these possibilities blow my mind. (Do you smell burned wiring?) Where on earth (and in time) are Damon and Carlton leading us?!

ashlie said...

Ha - Nikki, I totally have in my notes, "I love that FLocke pulls a Polkaroo on Ben"!

Ali Bags said...

@Nikki 'did anyone else think Oliver Reed as Bill Sykes was kinda hot? '

OMG Nikki! It has always been a running joke in my family how I find Bill Sykes in Oliver sexy, lol! They think this is funny because I a m usually such a feminist and finding a wife beater sexy goes against all my principles.

Nikki Stafford said...

Marebabe: If you go waaaay back to the original blog post I wrote up the night of "Jughead," follow that to the DocArzt post that I made the following day. Here's an excerpt of it (and it was meant to be tongue in cheek, though some of the readers on the DocArzt site called me a dumbass for posting it). Keep in mind Ellie had yet to be revealed as Eloise, and we hadn't yet been told Eloise and Widmore had been together OR that Daniel Faraday was her son OR that Widmore had funded Daniel's research. I thought I was making the wildest prediction possible, and then slowly much of it started to come true:

So in the 1950s Charles Widmore decided to join a group of pre-hippy hippies and come to an island in the South Pacific. (I haven’t yet worked out this early part... give me a few weeks.) He meets a tough chick named Ellie, which is short for Eloise. In the mid-60s Eloise and he have a brief affair and she gets pregnant. The child turns out to be Daniel Faraday. Ellie takes the child and leaves the island, and Widmore finds and turns the frozen donkey wheel and is unexpectedly ejected from the island. He returns to England, remarries and has a child named Penny. Years later, Daniel is a professor at Oxford trying to figure out how to time travel, and he names his rat Eloise, after his mum. (Um... nice?) Widmore tracks him down (not hard when they live a stone’s throw from each other) and he’s reluctant to admit that he’s his father, but realizes that Daniel’s work could help him find the island again, and funds it. Penny meets and falls in love with Desmond, then Desmond ends up on the island, then time travels back to the moment where he could have stayed with Penny and NOT gone to the island. Eloise Hawking pops up, encourages him to get his ass back on that bloody island, and he does so. Then Daniel ends up on the island, and Desmond goes back in time to earlier Daniel to give him the correct coordinates of his machine. Then Desmond leaves the island, is reunited with Penny, gets her pregnant, they name the child Charlie. The child grows up, discovers the time machine research that Daniel Faraday had done, goes back in time to the island... and is called Charles Widmore. Penny just gave birth to her own father.

Oh YEAH, baby, this speculation is FUN! And while I’m at it, Hurley is actually Sawyer’s grandson, Ji Yeon is Jin’s great-great-grandfather, and Kate DOESN’T EXIST.

Oh. Right. I just remembered why I don’t speculate. I think I’ll go back to posing questions.

JS said...

The best thing in this episode for me is Locke’s face when Ben is talking about being judged. Locke is like someone who knows everything about a topic listening to an amateur or a child discuss it. He had a “HMM, the monster, that’s interesting” look on his face. Which supports the Locke = Smokey theory, and even the Locke = Smokey = MiB theory.

I definitely think Locke in his current state is a manifestation of Smokey, which is either the same as or an agent of MiB. It would make complete sense since so many of the dead are connected with appearances of the smoke monster, though not all appearances of the smoke monster include the dead. The exceptions to this – Ana Lucia to Eko, and anyone off island to Hurley. Those do not seem to be manifestations of the smoke monster, as they are not connected to Jacob, or repentance. I haven’t completely thought this through, but would welcome discussion. Most people on the island haven't seen, nor are attacked by Smokey.

Nikki Stafford said...

ashlie: Ah, great Canadian minds think alike!!

AliBags: And dirty female minds do, too!! I know EXACTLY what you mean! (That confession is something I would never make in a normal conversation... but our conversations over here are never normal!!)

Marebabe said...

Nikki, that is so awesome! LOLZ And I now remember reading that amazing post on Doc's site. I don't know what to make of this. Hopefully, S6 will tell us exactly what to make of it. Meanwhile, you go right on posing questions. Not that I have any answers! Well, except one. Yes, OF COURSE 40-year-old Chuck Widmore is hot!

JS said...

Couple of things I noticed:

When Young-ish (hot) Widmore is talking to Young Ben, he asks him if he remembers what happened to him, Ben does not answer, and instead asks him a question. Pretty nice side stepping for a kid. Could this be the beginning of the manipulative Ben?

I like the parallel you pointed out in your book, Nikki, where Ben is in Ben for the first two scenes with people looking over him.

It is curious that he says tell Desmond I'm sorry. The only thing I can think is that Desmond is hurt because it is connected to Alex being killed, and/or young Charlie is witness to the violence.

Ben has learned the same trick as Richard with Widmore – just invoke Jacob, since he doesn’t seem to have a relationship with him, similar to Ben. Maybe Widmore has never seen Jacob either

@Marebabe – remember Cesar found the gun in Ben’s office. How did Ben get Cesar’s gun?

The picture with Ben and Alex that he finds in his desk, they are looking in opposite ways, similar to Eloise and the monk. Are they just bad at photoshopping on this show?

Something you also mentioned in your book: Locke – no shoes over water. Does that have anything to do with smokey not being able to cross water, or does he have to be barefoot to cross water??

I love the “Elephant in the room” – the whole conversation is surreal. I didn’t have time to talk you back into killing yourself, so I did it, and here you are, so it all worked out ok. HA

Locke to Ben - I’ve decided to help you…be judged.

JS said...

There are some earlier clues pointing to Locke as some sort of saviour/messiah –
-- In re-watching season one, caught a few things, including lines from Charlie about trusting Locke – if there is anyone I would put my faith in to save us all, it would be JL. Also pointing to him as the messiah/savior –
-- his mother telling him he was immaculately conceived
-- in S5 he is “resurrected”

So, that begs the question, is Locke the one who will save them all????

I'll save the rest of my comments for later

tiasabita said...

Maybe Ben now thinks living is the ultimate punishment since he is forced to kill his 'master' and will certainly pay big for that. But I think when he looked up from that pit at John that he seemed unbelieving but thankful.

@JS - Yes, I so hope it's John's dead body lying in the shadow of the statue that will somehow save them all.
After his lonely, pathetic life he deserves to be a hero.

Nikki, it's amazing you theorized all that before you had all the puzzle pieces! Wow! And like Marebabe said, Little Charlie=Charles Widmore is all just too weird to not be a possibility.

Susan said...

Ewww sorry I don't find middle Widmore hot, mostly just annoying.

Nikki re Ben telling Sun & John 2 different things. I think he's telling Sun the truth because there's no reason to lie to her. But there is a HUGE elephant-sized reason to lie to John. If you killed a guy, then when you wake up from being beaten over the head with an oar, and your murder victim sits there grinning at you, of course you're going to lie and say "I meant to do that!"

JS re Ben getting Caesar's gun: Ben is a master liar and manipulator, maybe he is also a master pickpocket.

When this episode came on the first time, didn't we do a lot of speculating about whether or not Danielle recognized Ben when she shot him in the jungle as Henry Gale?

Marebabe re counterclockwise draining: maybe they filmed it in Hawaii (ccw)and then reversed the film (cw). I know they did that in AL's flashback with Christian at the bar in Australia (though I don't remember how I know it).

The Question Mark said...

@Nikki: if L'il Chuck turns out to be Charles Widmore, that would be pretty awesome! I would give you ultimate kudos for calling that so early on! It reminds me of that awesome Futurama episode, where Fry becomes his own grandfather. LOL

A friend and I have come up with a VERY COOL theory today regarding the finale, but I'll get to that when we get to it ;)

RE: The Man In Black
Since "The Incident" first aired, I've theorized that the reason we never hear the MiB's name is because his actual name would be a giveaway as to his character/personality. (i.e., if his name was something simple like Joseph, then keeping his name secret wouldn't have that big of an impact). Therefore, I think his name is Lucifer. Or, the Devil if you wanna get technical.
I believe Jacob is an angel (and maybe some of the Others, too), and maybe Jacob & Lucifer both fell from grace and are forced to live in this "in-between" place for a very long time. Perhaps only by killing one can the other return to heaven/paradise/hell/Portland/wherever they came from.
The casting sheet for MiB that Darlton wrote up describes him as a "corporate raider looking to take over his next company". Sounds pretty satanic to me ;) LOL
Anyway, that's my rant!

Also, great acting by Terry once again! You can real tell in hindsight that this "John Locke" is different and eerie.

Marebabe said...

@Susan: Reversing the film as you suggested makes perfect sense. Thank you! However (Darn it! There's always a "however"), assuming they did that, it must've been a deliberate decision. So the question remains, WHY?

I'm pretty sure it was in the bonus features on the DVD that we learned about them reversing the film to create the illusion that Ana Lucia was driving a car with the steering wheel on the right. It was quite complicated, because they had to make at least one backward sign, the one that read "Cocktail Bar". The scene in this episode with the water swirling down the drain was much simpler.

paleoblues said...

How did Locke get into Ben’s office when Ben was looking for the photo. If he had opened the swinging doors we would have seen light from the hallway flood the room. When we first see Locke the door is ajar, when the camera comes back the door is closed and thenwhen he sits at Ben’s desk the door is ajar again. Maybe he just un-Locked the door.

Who the heck was Caeser? Why was he the only one in the front of the plane that was not connected to one of the “returning” passengers? Why did Ilana think he was a Jarah when she came to?

When Ben shoots Desmond in the shopping bag, notice there is no hole in his shirt as he falls.

Then Des beats Ben pretty badly in the face. How did Ben hurt his arm? Didn’t the blood wash off his face in the water? When he talks to Jack on the phone later his face is still all bloody.

When Sun, Lapidus, Ben and Locke are talking in Ben’s front room there is a portrait of a woman on the wall. She is sitting, holding an object in her lap and looks a lot like a middle aged Ellie (Eloise).

When Ilana knocks Lapidus to the sand with the butt of her rifle, there is a black, cylinrical object by his head. There was no object there in the sand when he was walking up to Ilana.

When young Ben says “I wanna stay” it sounds almost like “I Namaste”.

Re MIB as a "corporate raider". Locke also made the comment that Ben's office "seem a little corporate".

Joan Crawford said...

"Anybody here ever fired a sawed-off shotgun? Because I have."

Woah! Awesome! I fired a 22 once. That's, you know, kinda cool...right?

Also, I find almost every dude on Lost ( to phrase this in a classy way, for I am a classy girl) palatable (Save Frogurt, Arzt, Paolo, Ben's Dad, Hurley's Dad, Kate's Dad...other than that though - we're pretty much a go).

paleoblues said...

Re clockwise/counterclockwise draining. Here are a couple of links to check out.

They suggest that the Coriolis force that does affect large weather systems over time and causes them to rotate (cyclones counterclockwise in the north and vice versa in the south) has little or no effect on water flowing down a drain.

Fred said...

When Ben goes to kill Penny, has passes a boat named "Savage." And yet, he does not kill Penny, because he sees Charlie with her. In much the smae way, Ben refuses to kill Rousseau, but I think he had always planned not to. He knew Rousseau had a child, becuase Charles told him to shoot both Rousseau and the baby. In the tent, he fires the gun once (if any Others are near by, say Ethan, they'll think Ben shot Rousseau). But he takes back Alex--I suspect the fertility problem was already happening by this time. This sort of kidnapping will occur time and again with the Oceanic survivors.

But when Ben went into the office and removed the photo of himself and Alex, why did he do this? One reason could be he wanted no one else looking through the office to come across it and realize Ben had been on the island before (did Ceasar already see this when searching the desk?). Or likely it was sentimental. Hence, Ben has a weak spot--his daughter.

When Charles comes to see young Ben, it is like older Charles coming to see Locke. Since we now know, Charles looked down on Ben, it is likely he looked down on Locke (Ben is right to tell Locke he could not trust Charles Widmore). Charles has one goal in mind, the recovery of the island. How can he. We've been told once ejected, always ejected. But Charles was not ejected, but removed on the sub. Does returning require a sacrifice (some substitute for the main person returning)?

For whom does Bram and Ilana work? In the next episode we learn why Miles asks Ben for $3.2 million. Naomi had offered from Widmore, $1.6. Bram holds Miles, and Miles asks him for $3.2 (when Miles encounters Ben, he asks seeing if Ben recognizes the number, as this would indicate Bram really works for Ben). Ben seemed confused by Miles' request, suggesting Bram and Ilana work for someone else. Could that be Richard? Richard seems to have always been a third player.

This is also the first time we get the puzzle, who lies in the shadow of the statue? But since the statue is broken down, there is no shadow anymore. (And yes, I know dead-Locke lies in the shadow). But was there something else in the shadow before Locke's body? The other possibility is this riddle may go nowhere.

@paleoblues: you are right. The Coriolis force only works on large bodies of water. If it worked on small bodies like toilets, which actually work because of the way water is jetted into the bowl. If it worked on smaller bodies of water, it would be a phenomenon in lakes. It's like gravity, works well with large water bodies (oceans, Great lakes), but not small bodies, like rivers, pools, our blood system.

Marebabe said...

@paleoblues: I enjoyed your phrase, “shoots Desmond in the shopping bag”. We’re all familiar with “shot in the foot”, or “shot in the chest”, but Desmond was clearly shot “in the shopping bag”! And I never noticed that there was no hole in his shirt and no blood. Two reasons, I think. A.) It happened really fast, taking up about 1½ seconds of screen time. Secondly, Henry Ian Cusick did a really good stunt fall, and I was busy admiring that.

@Joan: Firing a .22 is indeed cool! Just give me a .22 rifle with a scope, and I can make aluminum cans fly into the air all afternoon. And I agree completely with your unpalatable dudes list. You classy girl, you! ;)

Marebabe said...

@paleoblues & Fred: Thanks for elaborating on the whole Coriolis force thingy. I’m sometimes a little weak in science, and you have this day enhanced my understanding.

Fred said...

@Marebabe: Desmond was shot on the right shoulder, because when we see him pounding the life out of Ben, he is using only his left arm. Guess all that military training came in handy.

Fred said...

Talk about another religious image. Ben tossed in the water, a symbol of baptism. We see "baptisms" a number of times: Charlotte falling into the stream; Hurley cannonballing; Charlie dying in the closed radioroom. So it didn't seem to work out all that well for these characters.

One question I still have is do we all believe Ben when he says he was responsible for Alex's death. He seems to take responsibility, which he acknowledges to Locke. But any court would say it was Keamy and Widmore who are responsible. So does Ben know Locke is false, and he is just playing along. Since Ben always lies, I have to wonder if he really doesn't know what is going on. Especially that comic scene where Locke tells Ben, now you know what it's like to be me. I can imagine Ben truthfully saying, "actually, no, I don't."

SonshineMusic said...

Where else can you come onto a blog and find people discussing the Coriolis effect and the hotness of middle Widmore in practically the same sentence? This, my friends, is a most noteworthy blog.

Having said that, no, I do not find middle Widmore attractive. definitely not my type :P

This episode rocked my socks and I think of this Bendiana Jones video that some genius put together every time I watch it. I'll have to go find it.

I'm beginning to wonder if Richard really is a mouthpiece to Jacob or not.

There's a bird or something in front of the window in Ben's office. It made me think of a Phoenix - which I still think is an interesting thing to consider in light of Jacob being burnt in "The Incident"

Why do they bring Lapidus along? What is he a "candidate" for? This is a question I REALLY REAAAAALLLLYYY hope they answer in S6

Anonymous said...

It would be *very* interesting if little Charlie turned out to be Rock God Charlie; the toddler certainly looks like him - alas, he doesn't look a thing like the young Charlie that learns to swim from his butcher dad - and how did he end up with a butcher dad if he's Penny & Desmond's son? Was he kidnapped? Orphaned? (Yikes.)

It would go a long way, come to think of it, to explaining why Charlie looks almost nothing like his big brother.

crazyinlost said...

@JS-"@Marebabe – remember Cesar found the gun in Ben’s office. How did Ben get Cesar’s gun?"
How does Ben do Anything? lol

Fred said...

Eko was killed by the smoke monster because he would not ask for forgiveness. Ben accepted guilt in Alex's death, and he survived. So what sort of equation does this imply: accept your sins and you'll be allowed to live?

If the smoke monster is Locke, then why did it go after him so early in the first Season, trying to sdrag him down the vent? If all of this was an elaborately staged con by MiB, then dragging Locke down a vent would not have played into the long con. Does the monster work on its own? You can summon it, but not control it?

crazyinlost said...

@Susan-"Ewww sorry I don't find middle Widmore hot, mostly just annoying."
I'm with you, sister, ewww!

Also, I agree with you with the reversing of the film footage of the drainage. They seem to do that alot in post. Not sure why. But another note to Marebabe about your comments concerning Hawaii, it really isn't that far from the equater, relatively, (sits around 20'N). But I think they refer to it as part of the South Pacific, because it is so close to the equator, it is definitely tropical, but mostly because the origional people to inhabit it were from Polynesia (Tahiti, Fiji, Solomon Islands, etc) which are all South of equator.

crazyinlost said...

@The Question Mark-"@Nikki: if L'il Chuck turns out to be Charles Widmore, that would be pretty awesome!"
I'm sorry but all I can think is, gross! Penny is Chuckie's (her dad) mom? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! Especially if it just keeps going around and around and around! Yuk

Pamalamb said...

I think this is my favorite episode in season 5. This episode is so chock full of content it blows my mind (or yes Sunshine "rocks my socks").

Watching the Ben's judging scene, knowing what we now know, I think smokey and MIB are seperate entities, not the same. I think smokey comes out and does his little "Smokey Horror Picture Show" and then goes back under ground. Then MIB appears as Alex, does his thing, disappears, and in a few minutes reappears as Unlocke. I don't know however if anybody controls Smokey (Jacob or MIB) or if Smokey does his own thing on his own.

I know Ben is bad to the bone, but how cold do you have to be to shot someone in the chest after they've told you they have your back?

One of the questions I want answered in Season 6 is why wardrobe can't find a decent hair piece for Michael Emerson! The piece he is wearing when he steals Alex, takes the cake as the worst -- and what is with that scarf around his neck?

Did anyone else find it really creapy that young Ethan was so anxious to kill Rousseau? This episode also left me wondering how Ethan ended up with the Others and what happened to his mother -- is she with the Others too? and if so, when did they defect?

crazyinlost said...

@The Question Mark-"Perhaps only by killing one can the other return to heaven/paradise/hell/Portland/wherever they came from." ROFL!

@paleoblues-"When Ben shoots Desmond in the shopping bag, notice there is no hole in his shirt as he falls."
Maybe the bullet goes thru the gap between buttons! lol

@Joan Crawford-"Also, I find almost every dude on Lost ( to phrase this in a classy way, for I am a classy girl) palatable (Save Frogurt, Arzt, Paolo, Ben's Dad, Hurley's Dad, Kate's Dad...other than that though - we're pretty much a go).
Hahahahaha! Who's left? Ben? Is he 'palatable'? But I pretty much agree with your list. With the exception of Chuckie W. eww

@Fred-I totally agree with you on Ben really loving Alex. She seemed to love him also, but then became a teenager, and started acting like one, and also became awhere of what her father really was. But I don't doubt for a moment that Ben truly loved her and truly felt bad for what happened with her.
Also, I always interpreted the "Who lies in the shadow of the statue" as being Jacob, since he lives underneath the statue, or is that just way too obvious?

So why wasn't Ben's healing from being shot immediate? It seems if he was taken to the temple to be healed, he would have, not just 'fixed' like anyone else on the island who just heals quickly.

So, Ilyana knows John isn't who he says he is, but doesn't do anything about it? Did they find the dead body before or after John showed up alive on the beach? Is she under orders to take the body to Jacob first? Fred asked who Ilyana works for. I would guess Jacob since he went to see her in the finale, and she seemed to know him.

There is no way that kid in '88,
'89 was the same 40ish man we see 16 yrs later! What happened? Does Richard dump all his years on the 'others'? Is that what keeps him young??

Does Ben even know who Christian is? I don't remember them being associated at all, and since he wasn't a true passenger on flight 815, would he know about him?

"As long as the dead guy says there's a reason, then I guess everything is gonna be just peachy." Oh Frank! I was excited to hear he is going to be a season regular in s6!

It's so fun to watch the flip in dynamics between Ben/John. I read an article where both actors are interviewed together and they talk about how much fun it is to play off one another. Michael Emerson even said he would like to do something different with Terry after Lost is over.

Ben is like a Timex watch-he takes a licking and keeps on ticking!

JS said...

pamalamb - Watching the Ben's judging scene, knowing what we now know, I think smokey and MIB are seperate entities, not the same.

Though Smokey and MiB are most likely different physical entities, I think it is safe to say they work in concert. They did with Eko, and they do in this instance. And we have never seen more than one dead person ambulating at a time.

As I said above, where there is smoke, there isn't always a dead guy, and vice versa. But the dead guy in question and the smoke never appear together.

Joan Crawford said...

"As I said above, where there is smoke, there isn't always a dead guy, and vice versa. But the dead guy in question and the smoke never appear together."

I love this! It makes perfect sense here but anywhere else - people would inch away from you if you started saying stuff like that!

Verification Word: Explo

"Look out, Nana! It's going to explo-"

paleoblues said...

Maybe Hurley has been carrying around that guitar so Charlie Widmore could eventually get a hold of it and start taking lessons.

Ed said...

Marebabe - that's actually a misconception about water draining in a different direction in the southern hemisphere. I've lived in both southern and northern hemispheres and it isn't true.

That effect (the Coriolis Effect) refers to large weather systems and currents - not to things as small as a bathtub or sink or toilet. That has more to do with the shape of the toilet and how the water is directed into the bowl than what hemisphere it's in.

Teebore said...

I LOVE the scene where Ben lies to Caesar and we know he’s lying… it’s like watching a master at work.

It is, I think, the only time, thus far, that the audience ABSOLUTELY knows that Ben is lying while he's lying. Sure, we can re-watch episodes and realize in retrospect he's lying (like the Henry Gale stuff) but this was the first time we got to see Ben lie when we knew, right then, that he was lying.

And it is, indeed, awesome.

All this talk of the Coriolis Effect just makes me think of one of my all time favorite "Simpsons" episode in which the family goes to Australia because Bart's been collect calling countries in the Southern Hemisphere to find out if Lisa is correct about the Coriolis Effect (of course, in the Simpsons world, it does effect smaller bodies of water like toilet bowls, unlike in our world).

Long story short, when in the American embassy in Australia, Bart asks if the water in the toilets drain the opposite way, at which point he's told a device (which is larger than the toilet) has been added to ensure the water drains "the correct, American way."

Cracks me up every time (and that's not even close to the funniest bit in that episode).

SonshineMusic said...

@crazyinlost: Does Richard dump all his years on the 'others'? Is that what keeps him young??

hahahahahahaha! YES! That makes total sense. That would explain all of the age discrepancies that we've seen with Ben looking older than he should, Ethan - maybe even Widmore!

Also, for your other question Ben? Is he 'palatable'? I have to admit that yes, yes I do find Ben 'palatable'. Behind Sawyer, of course, but there you have it.

Joan Crawford said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joan Crawford said...

@Sonshine - Word! I find Ben "palatable" as well! Ahahaha! I mean, he isn't in the top 5 or anything but, well, there you have it. I would totally "palatable" Locke, too.

Awesome on you for admitting and allowing me to come out of the Ben closet.

EvaHart said...

Wow, just reading all these comments reminds me what a super-intelligent group of people comment here! All this specualtion and stuff about the Corolis effect is really amazing stuff!

Well I don't have much more to add except that watching this episode believing Locke is TMIB makes so much more sense, the way he is averse to Ben's moving to the barracks and how he knows so much about being judged.

@paleblues and who caesar is, i really hope we find out, he must be important to be in first class along with the oceanic 6. I originally thougt he may be allied with Illna as when they were talking in the office and when he helped her after the crash it seemed they knew each other, more than just plane survivior bonding.

I also belive taht Ben was telling the truth to Sun and lying to Locke, as Susan said, you are more likely to lie to the person you killed then anybody else. However it doesn't seem like Ben to tell the truth to anyone, especilly Sun who he doesn't really have any ties to and also the woman who knocked him out with an oar. I think there could be a possibilty Sun and Jin are more important than we think and Ben knows it. Remeber how he changed and murdered Locke after he found out Jin was still alive?

I also belive Ben truly loved Alex, and thats why he wanted to be judge. He must have been sure Keamy wouldn't kill her as otherwise why would he take the risk if he loved her so much?

Fred said...

@evahart: My bet on Ceasar is he is looking for what happened to Rousseau and her crew. The French accent is all that I can base this on.

Notice how Ceasar calls everyone "friend," like Desmond calls everyone "brutha." Based on this little and very thin bit of evidence, maybe Widmore sponsored Ceasar to look for Rousseau's crew.

Jenn said...


@Joan and Sonshine

I also find Ben…palatable. I have a friend who is amazingly creeped out/scared of Ben, and nothing makes me giggle more then telling her that I find him…um…palatable. It causes her to go into convulsions shouting, "Ew! No! Wrong! Wrong on so many levels!"

tiasabita said...

@question mark - love your fallen angel theory. or maybe a fallen mythological greek god. look forward to hearing your theory for the finale! go ahead and let us hear it now please!

@paleoblues - yeah, who the heck is cesar? he seemed to have some importance but he just fizzled out without serving any purpose. he definitely had some inside info. he didn't seem to know ben or ilana but maybe that was a ruse. did wid send him to keep an eye on ben? @fred - interesting idea about cesar coming to investigate rousseau's dissaperance but why would wid be interested in her? maybe an as-yet-unknown group sent him?

JS said...

I will have to agree with the "palatableness" of many of the characters, particularly in light of the "on a deserted island" situation. I have even considered balancing "making a selection" with "making a mistake I cannot erase just by not showing up at that bar anymore".

In season one, they were pointing Kate to Sayid for a little while. Imagine that love pentagon / quintangle.

Virgina Katz said...

Love your idea of little Charlie growing up to be Charles Widmore Nikki! Gross as it may be:)

After Ben stole Alex what did she eat? I was wondering about that in regards to Aaron and Kate also. Do the Others have formula?

Also, when Sun and Lapidus find Dharmaville there are Dharma logos on the doors and they find the pictures of the recruits still on the walls, but when Ben and John arrive to go to Ben's house they find it as it was in 2007?????

paleoblues said...

Maybe Smokey was in there messing with the pictures and the logos before Sun, Lupidus and Christian got there. Remember Smokey went out the door once they entered.

And maybe it wasn't 2007 when Ajira 316 landed. That would mean the runway that was apparently being built by hand was finished and started to become overgrown in less than three years. Also, the buildings appear to have been vacant and deteriorated more than 3 years.

Anonymous said...

Okay...palatable. Here's a doozy of a confession: I find "old" Charles Widmore extremely hot. Okay, granted, he's 70 if he's a day, but there's something really sexy about his aura of power; he's super intelligent, super confident, takes charge, gets things done and never falters, even when faced with a creepy visitor in the middle of the night.

Also, I thought Ben looked rather palatable when he showed up at the funeral home wearing that black leather jacket with his hair all spiked up. (Woof!)

Let the "ewwwws" begin.

Joan Crawford said...

@ Studiorose - This is amazing! I really feel we are all breaking into important new ground here. It's cathartic, really. Confessions - men we find sexy. I'll go! Professor Snape is hot. I'd be all over that. There, it's not so bad!
I can completely see your attraction to Charles Widmore: competency is sexy.

So, too bad for you, Dr.Jack.


Anonymous said...

LOL! Jack is an arrogant dork who acts like he never got past high school. Could you see Charles Widmore getting all emo like Jack does? Never happen (and I'd lose all respect for him if it did).

Before I got my best friend hooked on LOST, we were at the book store and I picked up a LOST magazine. Not knowing who any of the characters were, she pointed at Jack and said, "Hey, he's pretty cute." I said, "Trust me; you'll find him irritating. Maybe you'll like this guy better," and flipped to a picture of Sawyer. (Sorry, Sayid is all mine.)

Weirdly? She ended up getting all hot and bothered over LOCKE. (Ew.)

SonshineMusic said...

For me, the great Ben moment was when he was going up to see Widmore and he had that burgundy button up shirt with the black jacket... ::sigh::

Also, definitely love Faraday. I have always been attracted to the "geeky" in any show - Daniel from StarGate? total hotty. ::snork:: What have we all begun here?

In more Lost related matters, I have a friend I hooked on Lost and he just finished the fifth season. He was certain that Cesar was important and was shocked, complaining to me quite loudly, that he didn't understand why they killed him off. I have to admit that never made sense to me. He certainly seemed to know more than he should have. I don't know if that's something they will address, but I like the idea that he was possibly trying to find out about Rousseau. Did they bury his body? Could we end up seeing some sort of "reincarnation" of him?

crazyinlost said...

@Joan Crawford-"Awesome on you for admitting and allowing me to come out of the Ben closet."
ahahahahah-I wouldn't necessarily say 'Ben' the character, he's a bit too nerdy for me, but Michael Emerson is okay.

word verif-upsyc-again, what Charlie did to the copyr.

Stheno said...

"In more Lost related matters, I have a friend I hooked on Lost and he just finished the fifth season. He was certain that Cesar was important and was shocked, complaining to me quite loudly, that he didn't understand why they killed him off. I have to admit that never made sense to me. He certainly seemed to know more than he should have. I don't know if that's something they will address, but I like the idea that he was possibly trying to find out about Rousseau. Did they bury his body? Could we end up seeing some sort of "reincarnation" of him?"

I know this is old stuff and nobody will read this comment for ages, but I have to write my thoughts down.
I think we have a major reference to Season 1 here. There is this really competent guy who has organized the other people after the plane crash, who takes care for the injured, who tries to clear up all the mysteries (where are the six passengers?) and who seems to be the boss. Just like Jack and Sayid did after the crash of Oceanic 815. Obviously a person you want to have around you if you'd ever be in a situation like this.
And because we expect him to be like Jack, he is killed in the fastest way possible: shot by Ben.