Follow along! The episode guide for “Whatever Happened, Happened” is in Finding Lost — Season 5, pp. 160-169, and an explanation of the Miles/Hurley argument is on pp. 169-172 (featuring many regular Nik @ Niters as contributors!)This episode contains one of the funniest moments of the season (the Miles/Hurley debate) and the single saddest moment in the series for me, when Kate leaves Aaron behind. GUTTED. I still can’t get over it, and I’ll be honest, when it came around this time I had a magazine on my lap and tried to distract myself with it so I wouldn’t have to watch again. THAT is how much that scene hurts me.
Fun things I noticed:
• I’m still not convinced that Hurley pwns Miles the way he thinks he does, and I think the writers purposely had him halt Miles on the very thing that he’s wrong about: I believe Ben DID know who Sayid was.
• Oh that goodbye scene… honestly, my son looks even MORE like Aaron, because his hair went from blond to platinum over the summer and he’s two-and-a-quarter now. He was only 18 months when it first aired. I can’t stand it!!
Things that have new meaning:
• Locke’s “Welcome back to the land of the living” MUST have greater significance than just a throwaway line. Do Ben and Locke have something in common? Is it possible Ben was killed in the Temple and resurrected somehow the way Locke was? Is he being controlled by another entity and when he wakes up with Locke sitting there, he’s somehow turned back into the original Ben? Wait… is it possible the Man in Black was in Ben and when he jumped to Locke, Ben became different? Hm. Argh, this is all too much for my head. Hurry up, Season 6!!!
42 comments:
Nik - I keep coming back to what Richard says before he takes Ben to the Temple for healing. "His innocence will be gone." The more I examine Locke's manner and actions since he returned to the Island, I see a man devoid of innocence, seemingly at peace with himself but scheming all the while to get inside the foot of the statue with his pet assassin by his side.
Also, Richard says, "He will always be one of us". We've heard Ben describe himself as being 'born on the Island' - but this is a more powerful connection. Whatever Richard considers himself to be (and, oh, how I yearn to learn this in Season 6), this is what Ben becomes when he is brought to the Temple. I don't think most of these Others have necessarily undergone this transformation as some sort of 'initiation'. It may only be a precious few - and THIS is why Not-Locke is able to use him for his evil designs.
I’m still not convinced that Hurley pwns Miles the way he thinks he does, and I think the writers purposely had him halt Miles on the very thing that he’s wrong about: I believe Ben DID know who Sayid was.
Well I think the writers use the Miles/Hurley debate to bring to our attention the question of whether Ben remembers Sayid or not, and whether what happened originally really must happen again the same way the second time through. Then the writers answer these questions at the end of the episode with Richard's speech. Miles may be confused as to why Ben doesn't remember Sayid (and we're supposed to be too), but we find out through Richard that Ben will forget Sayid when he's saved by the Others. And with this answer and with Ben being saved in this way, the writers also essentially say it's true the Losties can't change anything in the past but can only self fulfill prophecies.
That's what I got out of it anyway. Heaven knows I've been wrong before. I didn't even post my Sawyer/Me fanfic in the right place!
Should I have seen Jack’s refusal to operate on Young Ben coming from a mile away? Because it surprised me a really lot.
Juliet sent Sawyer after Kate and Ben, even though she was afraid of losing Sawyer to Kate. I didn’t catch that the first time through, but in rewatching this episode, I was very impressed by her dedication to saving lives, even at the probable expense of her relationship with the man she loves.
Juliet to Jack: “We didn’t need saving!” That’s true, but Jack didn’t know that. I’ll give him credit for his heart being in the right place.
The first time I saw the end of this episode, the fact that Ben was lying in the infirmary next to people who were injured in the rough landing of flight 316 caused me to lose track of the fact that Sun had bashed him in the head with that oar! THAT’S why he was taking a nap on that cot!
Some time last year, I read an interview with Sterling Beaumon, who plays Young Ben. He said that two things really stood out in his memory from playing this character. He had to cry a lot, and he had to be carried a lot. Indeed. I kept track of all the people who had to tote that young man around in this episode. First it was Jin, then Jin again, Kate and Juliet together, Sawyer, Sawyer some more, and finally Richard. Young Ben got to take it easy for awhile!
Nikki, the most essential part of your S6 book (for me) is the section entitled, “Miles and Hurley: The Great Time-Travel Debate”. I even folded down the corner of page 169, where it begins, so I can find it again easily. I’m so glad you included this discussion for those of us who are time-travel-challenged! It helps that I’ve seen all the movies you referenced MANY times. (And maybe that’s why I’m so challenged by all this, because, like Hurley, I’ve seen too many movies!)
(sorry I am doing this on my blackberry so pls excuse typos)
Two things for me:
1. I like the time travel discussion and your explanation in the book is great. But it has also led me to think that one could just go down a different street and drop different bread crumbs ie have an alt reality
Still not changing the past, just having a diff one.
2. Agree w humanebean on the no innocence FLocke. The look he gives Ben is like "psych!". We'll see this in Dead is Dead, where he basically treats Ben like a child.
The time travel debate is hilarious, and I believe, completely necessary. Every story involving time-travel has got its own sets of rules & limitations, so it's nice that the writers have firmly established their own rules using two very funny characters. It was like listening to two fans discuss the show LOL. The transcript of that scene probably looks like a Nik at Nite post!!
What could possibly be in that temple? I don't know if Ben becomes possessed by MiB after this, because when Ilana shows up with locke's body, Richard seems genuinely surprised that something this wacky & crazy could possibly be happening. but then again, if he's burying bodies vigorously, maybe he DOES have some kinda idea about what MiB is up to.
Just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone! I haven't abandoned ship...I've just been really behind on the rewatch for a month now. BUT I just finished "This Place is Death" last night so I'm getting close! LOL!! I will do my best to catch up by next week. Though I am going away next weekend to Disney so we'll see. LOL But since LOST is starting a week later than we originally thought when Nikki made the schedule, I think I'll be okay in time! LOL! But I've enjoyed reading your comments and I can't believe we are almost to S6!! Overall I have to say that I think that S5 has some of the best acting of all the seasons, especially Terry O'Quinn. Like when he finds out he has to die and he lets a tear slip out, tightens his lips and does a definitive nod...to accept that he's fated for this for a greater good (yet it seems that's not the case and the poor guy dies for nothing...so tragic!). Those quick subtle things the actors do just make this show even more stellar I think. And gut wrenching for us to watch of course! I know there's more to come since I'm behind, especially this episode, but it makes me realize even more how much I will miss this show! :(
Ah, the Hurley and Charlie show is now the Hurley and Miles show - love it!
@marebabe - I too am seriously time-travel challenged. The boys' discussion didn't really clear anything up for me! Looking forward to catching up on these last two eps in Nikki's book!
@humanebean - you make me remember when Widmore tells Ben in the hotel room that 'I made you, Boy. I know what you are.' Did Widmore have some sort of actual hand in Ben's transformation? And what is Ben exactly?
How did Cassidy guess that Aaron wasn't Kate's biological son? Why did Kate confide the truth in her and why didn't Cassidy tell someone else over the next 2+ years? I thought Cassidy was unnecessarily rough on Kate. Maybe there could be some deep truth that Kate needed something to replace the love she lost in Sawyer, but she saw an abandoned, helpless baby and stepped up and cared for him and fell in love with him. What kind of person would she have been to just walk away from him?
So no one ever questioned why Juliet was keeping her medical talents hidden from the DI all those three years? Suddenly she's delivering babies and performing surgery and no one bats an eyelash. What happened to that other doctor anyway?
Okay, okay. Did I miss something? Are we speculating that MiB is definitely not-Locke? Or is it for sure?
As well, (and again, I am pretty confident that I may have missed something, here) how did not-Locke come to be possessed MiB if not-Locke never had a temple re-birth à la Ben Linus?
I can't wait for S6! Soon we will (hopefully) have the answers that we so desire:)
Jenn we know Locke's form was assumed by MIB, but as for the same thing happening to Ben, that's just speculation for now.
Did anyone else think the "sweet woman" was creepy-looking? She may have looked like Claire from the back, but not from the front!
Sawyer bragged that he thinks out his decisions instead of just making them on the spot, but he must be regretting his urge to make Jack a workman. If he had made Jack a doctor, then it would have been harder for Jack to refuse to operate without raising suspicion. I guess since Juliet the car mechanic delivered a breech baby, Sawyer figured he could get away with a workman performing emergency surgery on little Ben.
I found Cassidy's psychoanalyzing really annoying. To me she just sounded like someone who was bitter about being dumped. I don't like Sawyer, but I think his motives for jumping out of the helicopter were nobler than the one Cassidy attributed to him.
This episode has the perfect title when I think about it. It fits in with the Miles/Hurley debate, Kate's decision to leave Aaron (and yes, I got weepy, too), and Jack's refusal to operate on Ben. Yet, I think it's also the perfect title for Sawyer's story as it relates to his past relationships prior to Juliet and the DI.
Cassidy accuses Sawyer of being a coward; Kate questions him. Yet, through it all, Sawyer looks forward instead of backward, realizing that Daniel Faraday's "rules" applied to more than just time travel. Whatever happened, happened, and as he acknowledges, he's done a lot of growing up over the last three years.
Hmmm...why did Kate *really* come back to the island? Was she b.s.-ing Claire's mom when she said it was to find Claire? If that was her real reason, she's got to be pretty frustrated that she landed in 1977 before "Cleh" was even born.
And while her sad goodbye to Aaron was touching, it was also rather cruel. How did her talk with him go, before she left him alone in the hotel room? "Guess what, Aaron, you have a grandma, and she's only two doors away at the moment, but we're not going to meet her now for some unknown reason, and guess what else - I'm going to leave for a really long time and your grandma is going to take care of you. Now go to sleep and when you wake up, the only mother you've ever really known will be gone and a complete stranger will be here instead, but I'm sure you'll be totally fine, both physically and emotionally, even though the only thing I really know about this woman is that she had an affair with your uncle's creepy alcoholic dad. Nighty-night! Catch a falling star and all that."
@marebabe: When Juliet tells jack we didn't need saving, this also has a religious ring to it. Maybe there is no need for a deity to save humanity from whatever. Interesting when you connect this with a figure like Christian, who says his son has "work to do." Maybe jack was right, and the island would have worked things out fine. But then we'd have never had such a great show.
@Nikki: I read the debate between Hurley and Miles in your book. I am in that camp of WHH, but am agnostic for the most part. Mostly because we have seen scenes (like the changing photos when Miles walks up and down the stairs) were changes occur. Des's friend (the physicist?) says to a student that with chaos if you perform the same experiment many times each outcome will be different. Is that what is happening here? Chaos is bleeding into the WHH scenario. Des as a variable is a contributor or perhaps a saviour (following Ms. Hawking) that will correct this increasing chaos (and is this the war Widmore mentioned).
@Jenn: Locke can't be smokie in some manifestation, as Sun and Frank meet with Christian (speculated as some form of the monster) while Locke is on the Hydra island. But what about MiB? If as some speculate that MiB is smokie, then Locke is some other form. If Locke is MiB, why didn't Ilana confront him with the dead Locke? I think Locke is another version of himself (like the second rabbit in the video), but like Ben he has lost his innocence.
@studiorose: Kate comes back with a purpose (to save Claire). But so does everyone else. Jack because he now believes Locke was right (though he doesn't know what he's to do); Sayid confused but discovering he must shoot young Ben; Sun to find Jin; Hurley (got nothing on why he came back).
@tiasabita: I’ve often wondered about the questions that would’ve been raised by the sudden revelation that Juliet is quite a skilled medical doctor. I think that, at the very least, there would be some indignation because she was holding out on them, and suspicion about her motives.
@tiasabita & Susan: You both mentioned Cassidy, and I confess, she’s a puzzlement to me. She is so quick, observant, insightful, AND opinionated, she seems like her real name should be Miss Yoda Sherlock Know-It-All. It’s not so much wisdom as some kind of eerie, psychic X-ray vision. With a dash of bitterness. I dunno. She just doesn’t seem REAL to me. It’s hard to explain.
@Nikki-I agree with you whole heartedly! Ben HAD to have known who Sayid was. It's the only thing that makes sense, IMO, as to why he treated him the way he did. Ben has been molding and shaping Sayid for one purpose only...to Kill Ben! I guess I just answered my own question from the last blog!
@Jazzygirl-love your name, by the way, my daughters name is Jazmin, with a z, and I often call her Jazzygirl! You mentioned you thought John dies for nothing. Where I agree he dies tragically, I don't agree it was for nothing. IMO, the O6 would not have come back if John had stayed alive, and with them dying, I guess that was Ben's way of "helping" him to get the O6 to go back.
@tiasabita-I think Cassidy guessed about Aaron by the way Kate was acting and the fact Kate had already told her that (2.5 yrs ago). This scene you are refering to happens right before Kate gives up Aaron, which is right before they go back to the island. But I agree with you that Cassidy was awful harsh with Kate, but I believe C. made a big impact on K's decision to go back.
word verif-dityrim-a song played on the drums.
@studiorose-love your monologe of Kate w/Aaron! But I remeber Aaron asking a few eps back, "Mommy, where you going?" when he sees Kate packing, so maybe he's used to Kate leaving for long periods? (As long as it's w/in a 10mile raidus?)
word verif-grail-something holy that's been lost for a long time and made for the perfect plot of a really great MP movie!
@Fred-most of the time the stuff you say goes WAY over my head (and I dont consider myself too dense, just a dimwitted yank), but your WHH comments actually made alot of sense to me! I am in the total faith camp, but this time travel, alternate reality stuff just totally facinates me, and I've never understood why, knowing from my beliefs that it is all hogwash. But maybe it's just the speculating thats so much fun!
@Fred-Hurley came back because Jacob told him it was the right thing to do, and for all Hurley knows Jacob was dead, and Hurley listens better to the dead.
Okay, finally read thru everyone else.
Love Kate's look when she meets Roger (Workman/Skeletor) Linus! Makes me wonder what Sawyer's reaction was when he first met him! "Hey, Skeletor, lets go have a Dharma beer!"
Jack-"Did you ever think that maybe the island just wants to fix things itself, and maybe I was just getting in the way?" Very insightful. He has made a 180 finally after 5 (I guess just 3 for him) years!
C'mon Hurley, I totally understand what Miles is saying!! Maybe it's that ADD thing again!
Those heels Kate has on! How does she walk, let alone run! I'd be flat on my face!
So the place RA took Ben wasn't the 'statue' place. That was on the beach. It looked like the place that has the Smoky Tunnels that Ben was judged at which was in the jungle. So who really saved Ben?
Susan: Did anyone else think the "sweet woman" was creepy-looking? She may have looked like Claire from the back, but not from the front!
HONESTLY!!! I completely agree with you. I find her REALLY creepy-looking. It's like that scene in Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer when the black cover pops off his nose and the reindeer games coach (Dasher?)'s eyes go all swirly and he goes, "Now listen, here, you... GYAAAAAAHHHHH!!!" That's how I feel whenever she turns around.
What legal authority did Ilana have for taking Sayid on the plane? What where those credentials that she flashed security? Who was she really working for or pretending to work for? Did she really represent the family of the man Sayid murdered?
What about those plastic handcuffs? When Sayid was captured by the DI didn’t they wonder about those cuffs? Did the “hostiles” have a supply of plastic cuffs in 1977 similar to those used in 2007?
Does the airline confiscate all types of identification before people get on the plane?
“I’m from the future.”
“No way.”
“Check my driver’s license.”
Did you notice the flash of light on Juliets’s face just before the thought came into her head that maybe the hostiles could save Ben? ie, someone (thing) planted that thought in her head.
Now we know why Mrs Littleton spent so much time in L.A. She was having plastic surgery. At the funeral she had at least 5 moles on her face. Now there all gone.
When Jack first gets back to the island in Namaste we see him playing with his watch and shaking his head. We saw the watch in Locke’s dream and the first mobisode. I can’t help feeling that the watch is important in some way or why do we keep seeing it?
One more thought. Aaron really likes to "push the button." elevators, doorbells, maybe computers in the future?
Well, one more. Roger just finished cleaning in front of Sayid's cell before he threw the tray of food down. Now he has to clean it over again.
@paleoblues: I totally agree about Aaron. When they got to Cassidy's house & Kate let him ring the doorbell, I was instantly reminded of how he wanted to press the button in the elevator at the hotel.
I wonder if that's significant, but twas most genius of you to associate that with the Button Of All Buttons! We'll have to stay tuned!
I almost fell out of my chair laughing TWICE this morning! First, Nikki's comment about Rudolph, then Paleoblue's comment about Carol Littleton's plastic surgery ROFL.
Anyway, re Cassidy, Marebabe you're right that she doesn't seem real. It's more like they needed a way to get Kate to understand her own and Sawyer's motives, and they decided to use Cassidy to do it. I'm starting to wonder if she always talks to Kate like that, and if so, why does Kate keep her as a friend?
@Fred - Hmm. You're comments always make me question my assumptions, and I really do appreciate that. MiB not being Smokey would certainly change things. Ilana probably wouldn't want to confront whatever entity took over Locke's body on her own, and rather do it in front of a big crowd, with as much back up people and evidence as possible.
WE assumed MiB = Smokey b/c FLocke disappears during the judgment scene in Dead is Dead, and that all forces working against Jacob are one entity. But maybe Smokey is an agent of MiB. They are definitely working towards the same end IMO, and the same entity inhabiting FLocke must be the one doing it with all the other bodies. Why Christian and FLocke can be inhabited simultaneously? Maybe we aren't supposed to notice, or FLocke went to the bathroom while Christian is talking to Sun and Frank. But I think it is a stretch to think there are different entities inhabiting bodies on the island.
I cannot find the comment just now, but I thought the same thing when Juliet gets the idea to bring Ben to the others when shot. How much does Juliet know about the others healing powers, over and above those of the island?
@studiorose, Susan – I think that is the reason I have trouble with Kate. That had to be the conversation she had in her head. She wasn’t thinking reset and therefore Aaron will never feel abandoned, just bring Claire back.
@tiasabita et al – I think Cassidy is wrong about Kate motives. She took charge of Aaron before Sawyer made his very noble sacrifice. I think he could figure out how to go back to the real world and dump Kate if he really wanted to. He was never highly motivated to leave the island from the beginning, so he was the most obvious person to jump, and it aligns with his heroic behaviors up until that point.
@paleoblues – where would be the fun if security actually covered everything logical?? :)
Again, love the small smile Locke gives Ben – “Welcome back to the land of the living” – more a comment to himself, no? I cannot wait until we discuss Dead is Dead – I think it addresses the biggest questions of the series. Not necessarily providing answers, of course, but it makes us begin to look at things differently re: Jacob/entities against Jacob.
@paleoblues
What legal authority did Ilana have for taking Sayid on the plane? Who was she really working for or pretending to work for?
Good point. I think she must have known somehow that the plane would crash and just needed a reason to get Sayid on the plane. She doesn't seem to be working with Ben or Mrs hawking though so how she would know, is another question that hopefully will be answered!
@Cassidy, I'm glad to hear that some other people find her overly bitter and unlikable. She seem s to treat Kate like a small child which annoyed me. However for a clever woman, I find it odd that if she has found out about the bank account Sawyer set up for Clementine, she doesn't realise who it's from. OTOH Sawyer did dismiss her and the idea of a baby quite harshly when she last saw him.
On Locke's "Welcome to the land of the living line," I know there has been a lot of speculation over what it could mean, and to add to the ideas, a few weeks ago I found nearly that exact line in Psalm 116, which just happens to have the title Thanksgiving for escaping Death, which seemed quite topical. Then I discovered in Psalm 118 a line about the family of Aaron and 'open the Temple gates'.
Coincidence? Probably, but I thought it was a fun one, especially with all the religious references we have had in Lost lately.
And on a slightly unrelated note, tonight I was watching a repeat of Veronica Mars when young Charles Widmore came on. I couldn't stop laughing which confused all the non-Lost geeks around me.....
@Fred
That was extremely useful information! Thanks:)
@Fred: You questioned how MIB and/or Smokie can be appearing as Locke on Hydra Island while at the same time he/it is appearing as Christian with Sun and Frank. I'm not sure I have my timeline right because the same period of time was covered on two seperate episodes, but didn't Ilana come tell Ceaser that a man who wasn't on the plane was just found standing in the water in the late evening on the day they crashed, but Frank and Sun spoke to Christian in the early evening that day. If I'm right about the time, maybe Christian left Sun and Frank and then appeared as Locke on Hydra Island. I know the two events happen really close together, but perhaps they do not overlap. I could be totally off on this one -- it just occured to me and I thought I would mention it.
I also wondered why Ilana did not confront not Locke with the dead body of real Locke. I like JS's idea about her not wanting to confront him without back up. Also, she may not want to do anything confrontational without talking to Jacob first.
Another thing (though maybe I should wait till we get to The Incident), she was looking for Richard and asked him the infamous statue question, so maybe she was only supposed to show the dead body to Richard first?
@EvaHart: That is so cool about the Psalms reference. I'm gonna have to go check that out.
Can I say how much I love that Kate sings "Catch a Falling Star"? It just gives me happy goosebumps.
I really CANNOT stand Mrs. Littleton.
verification: phshess - a woman who scoffs at people
Hi All,
I have been reading all your comments and there is some really good stuff in there !. Today my wife decided to catch up with LOST before S6 starts, she has seen about 50% of the episodes at various times but has decided to start from the Pilot episode, it works out about 4 ep's per day , every day !...it looks like i will be LOST widow for a while !
@EvaHart-I too can appreciate the Psalms reference, and when it comes to Lost, I don't thing ANYTHING is coincidential.
@crazyinlost...I know what you're saying, but until we know WHO the heck this reincarnated Locke is, my view is that he was being used either by Ben or even the MiB for their own purposes. NOT for a greater good like he was lead to believe. That being said, I REALLY hope I'm wrong. Because it would just be SUCH a bitter end to his already hard life. And you know what I also love about this show? How involved and attached we are to these characters, as if they were real. LOL! Like I REALLY FEEL bad for Locke and his tragic life!
On a side note, Nikki, I just found Big Love is starting up this Sunday (tomorrow). I'm so excited! How did I miss knowing that?!! Oh, right...because I am completely fixated on Feb. 2nd!
@Nikki: That's how I feel whenever she turns around.
LMAO!
We recently re-watched Rudolph for the first time in years before Christmas, and man alive, everyone is a huge jerk in that thing. Even Santa's a jerk!
@paleoblues: Aaron really likes to "push the button."
Wow. That's an awesome observation. That's exactly the kind of little thing that doesn't seem important at the time but could, retroactively, become a neat little bit of foreshadowing when rewatching it, depending on what happens this season.
@studiorose: That was, I must tell you quite belatedly, a brilliant soliloquy. Kate seems to have a habit of walking out on men while they're sleeping, from Aaron to the pre-316 booty call with Jack to drugging Nathan Fillion.
Paleoblues: Does the airline confiscate all types of identification before people get on the plane? “I’m from the future.” “No way.” “Check my driver’s license.”
Also brilliant and totally true!
...
Verification word: misthro -- One way to mark an error in Phonetic Baseball.
"This episode contains one of the funniest moments of the season (the Miles/Hurley debate) and the single saddest moment in the series for me, when Kate leaves Aaron behind. GUTTED."
At least Aaron is finally with a member of his true family and not some woman who is pretending to be his mother.
It's interesting how people claimed that Kate finally grew up when she was raising Aaron. I would disagree. I would say that she finally began to grow up when she gave Aaron up to his grandmother and later confessed to Claire that she was wrong to raise him.
I think Cassidy is wrong about Kate motives. She took charge of Aaron before Sawyer made his very noble sacrifice.
Kate began the deception of being Aaron's mother long after Sawyer made his jump.
I really CANNOT stand Mrs. Littleton.
Why? She didn't steal anyone's child. Kate did.
How did Cassidy guess that Aaron wasn't Kate's biological son? Why did Kate confide the truth in her and why didn't Cassidy tell someone else over the next 2+ years? I thought Cassidy was unnecessarily rough on Kate. Maybe there could be some deep truth that Kate needed something to replace the love she lost in Sawyer, but she saw an abandoned, helpless baby and stepped up and cared for him and fell in love with him. What kind of person would she have been to just walk away from him?
Spare me! Kate should have turned Aaron over to his grandmother after she first met the other woman at Christian Shephard's funeral. In fact, both should have informed Carole Littleton that she had a grandson. And both should have informed Oceanic Airlines that Aaron was Claire's son. I'm tired of fans making excuses for Kate's obvious abduction of Aaron. And I'm sick and tired of them pretending that she, Jack and the other members of the Oceanic Six; had done nothing wrong regarding the lie surrounding Aaron.
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