Follow along! The episode guide for “Jughead” is in Finding Lost — Season 5, pp. 27-37. (Be sure to check out the sidebar on the REAL Jughead bomb.)This episode with the crazy name is one of the most important ones in the series. SO much happens in this one: I think in the later guides in my book, I refer back to this episode more than any other in this season. It’s got Charlie’s birth; Locke meeting Alpert in 1954; Daniel meeting his own mother; our first sighting of Charles Widmore ON THE ISLAND; the rampant speculation among fans of where the bomb ended up. Wow, this was one jam-packed episode.
I’m finding with Season 5 that I don’t have much to say that I didn’t already say in my book, since I actually had all of the seasons under my belt and could talk about them pretty freely there. But I’ll try to come up with enough to say here, and then you guys can take the conversation further.
Oh, and before I go any further, one of my readers emailed me to tell me that in the ep guide for “Because You Left,” I refer to the famous scene with Jimmy Stewart in North by Northwest. Which, as he said, was of course with Cary Grant, not Stewart. I just saw that movie again a couple of years ago. I can’t believe I made that error, but in case anyone else saw it, I want to reassure you it will be changed if there’s ever another printing. I think when it comes to Lost, I just permanently have Vertigo on the brain.
Fun things I noticed:
• When those landmines blew up, it reminded me of the way Smokey uprooted trees.
• So, I’ve seen this episode many times now, which means by now I can probably get used to Ellie’s accent. NOPE. No. Just can’t do it. I still hate it. HATE IT. The way she delivers every single line through clenched teeth is so irritating beyond words.
• I still find it strange that Juliet talks to them in Latin when Widmore and the other guy are speaking English. It makes it seem like she doesn’t trust the other people with her.
• “Are they from the future, too?” “You told her?” HAHA!!
• This is one of the first times we see Widmore clean-shaven. From Shape of Things to Come to finale where Sun approached him on the street to even the premiere of S5 where he talked to her in the airport, he always has silver stubble all over his face. But here his face looks as smooth as little Charlie’s bum.
• “Put the gun down, Widmore” STILL sends chills down my spine! Probably because I remember the “GAAASP!!! WHAAAA?!” feeling I had the first time I heard it.
Things that have new meaning:
• Now that we’ve seen both 40-year-old Eloise and 70-year-old Eloise, young Ellie is even MORE ANNOYING.
• Check out the flirting between Sawyer and Juliet!
19 comments:
I can recall watching this episode when it aired and just grooving on every second of it. I even got up early the next morning and watched it again before I went to work, just to take it all in. Storytelling at its best!
Loved the differences you pointed out in your book, Nikki, between Desmond's first meeting with Widmore and this later one. I can't help but feel that they are a direct result of things that have "changed" since then.
One quibble, in the book you mention that way back in "The Constant", Desmond's consciousness traveled back to 1996 ... it was the other way around, actually. Desmond's 1996 consciousness travelled forward to 2004 - this is why he was so confused and hysterical to suddenly find himself in a helicopter and then on a freighter with people who were strangers to him. This is one of the most fascinating uses of 'time travel' that I have ever seen. Or, have I seen it before somewhere and just don't remember it yet .... ?
I'd prefer not to notice the flirting between Sawyer and Juliet, thanks!
It’s too bad Juliet interrupted Locke. If only he had been allowed to say that Ethan was the one who shot him, wouldn’t THAT have been interesting!
I agree that Ellie’s fake British accent is pretty awful, but only because it has been repeatedly pointed out to me. (How many Americans in the room tonight? Let’s see your hands!) I have a theory that Americans aren’t so good at spotting fake English/Australian/New Zealand accents because there are so MANY. When I hear an unfamiliar accent, it’s easy to assume that this is just another one I’ve never heard before. Professor Higgins in “My Fair Lady” pointed out how many distinct accents there are in London alone. Or look at it this way: I’ll bet that people from other countries have a limited idea of what the American Southern accent is supposed to sound like. But having traveled a bit around this great land of ours, I can readily tell the difference between the accents of Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, Alabama, Arkansas and Texas. My point is that when I first heard Miss Ellie in this episode, I really didn’t know any better about her accent, because of limited exposure to real live Brits. Sure, I’ve seen lots of movies, but it’s not quite the same thing.
Nikki, in your chapter for this episode, you mentioned the U.S. Army knife that we saw in “The Other 48 Days”. You said it was likely that it belonged to one of the soldiers that the Others killed in 1954, and I agree with that. But I don’t think there’s any discrepancy about the time line because, as I remember it, Ana Lucia didn’t estimate that the knife itself was about 20 years old. I’m pretty sure she said that the Army stopped making that knife, or stopped issuing that knife to their soldiers, about 20 years ago. I would be interested in knowing the history of that kind of Army knife, when it was first introduced, and when it got replaced with something better.
How on earth could anyone in 1954 guess that Daniel Faraday was military? His very long hair is an instant disqualifier, in my opinion.
So few things in this life are perfect, but when we found out that Desmond and Penny named their son Charlie, I thought, “How utterly perfect.” (*happy sigh*)
I understand and totally support any Lost fan who chooses to not know anything about upcoming episodes before they air. But I must say, both “Jughead” and the next episode, “The Little Prince” were preceded by weeks of jolly (and often scholarly) speculation about what those strange titles might mean. I remember that part of S5 fondly.
One thing that bothered me in this episode was Ellie's remark to Daniel when they first met (and she was holding him at gunpoint): "You just couldn't stay away, could you?" We never saw where that conversation went (due to the scene ending), and later she asks why Daniel keeps staring at her, as if they're strangers. What did she mean by, "You just couldn't stay away, could you?" Did she recognize Daniel as having been on the island before? Or did she mean "you" in a more universal sense, referring to all of the people they caught and presumed were their attackers?
Anyway, it bugged me. :)
Also, why is young Widmore wearing a jacket that says "Jones" on the nametag?
OK it's a Desmond episode, and it has all the good stuff that Nikki mentions, but this episode still makes me cringe for one simple reason -- Ellie. I don't think it's just her accent that's terrible, I think it's her acting too.
Nikki I assumed Juliet spoke Latin to show the guys that she could speak it too, hoping to gain a bit of their trust.
Marebabe, I have to say that participating in all the speculation during season 5 ruined many reveals for me. But it was still fun to speculate.
Studiorose I think we are supposed to assume that the Others, after killing the Army dudes, took not only their camp but also their equipment, i.e. uniforms and guns.
This episode made me realize the ridiculous number of giving birth scenes we've seen in this show. Why is it the writers love to show a woman screaming in pain? They probably just think it's funny to make the actors do it. Think about it, we've seen Claire, Ben's mother, Locke's mother, Penny, Sun and Amy all giving birth. That's a whole lot of screaming. I'm probably forgetting someone too!
Kate probably got knocked up the night before they went back to island so she must be next.
I had one question about Eloise and Daniel - did she recognize him later when she killed him? Or did it all happen quickly *shamefacedly admitting that she can't remember the scene and hasn't the time to watch it before we get there with the rewatch*
It seems like it is something she would have remembered.
I want to know who told Richard to kill the American soldiers. Jacob? MiB? Who was the leader before Widmore? Ray? (haha) Does it even matter?
Widmore knows more about Daniel's next of kin than Desmond will ever know. haha!
Love Sawyer's line, "Maybe I should have said it in my secret language."
Verification: CoedImph - open housing for sprites, brownies and other impish creatures.
@studiorose: Ellie's remark to Daniel was more a generic "they" meaning members of the U.S. Army. Ellie interprets Daniel, Miles and Charlotte as belonging to a second wave of troops sent in by the Army to see to Jughead.
I wonder if Richard really undertsands time travel. Locke's whole purpose of meeting with Richard is to get information on what to do in the frozen cave. At times, both in previous episodes and this, Richard seems a little out of the loop. Like when Locke tells him Jacob sent him, Richard's reaction doesn't seem quite what one would expect. It's almost like he's a little bit perplexed, but he will play along to see what Locke is all about.
I mean, if Richard really suspected Locke came from Jacob, then wouldn't it be an easy thing to ask Jacob after Locke disappears? Instead Richard follows through, going to see Locke's birth, giving Locke the test, and providing for future education at a summer camp. These observations, as Richard later says, do not convinve him Locke is what he says he is, leader of the Others.Yet, during Season 3, Richard gives his spiel to Locke about how the Others consider him a possible leader, or very special (scene on the hillside where Richard gives Locke Sawyer's file). Now why would Richard do this if he had already decided Locke wasn't who he thought he claimed to be? It seems inconsitent in motivation.
One solution is that Ben actually told Richard to give Locke the file, that is if you believe Locke was needed as some part of a big con. This would mean Richard still did not see anything special in Locke, but just followed his leader's wishes.
But this also raises the question of Jacob. Has Richard ever seen Jacob on a regular basis? Does Richard really know what is going on, or is he like so many on the show somewhat out of the information loop? I'm beginning to think so.
@ Nikki: Young Eloise and Pierre Chang should have a sitcom together, where they live in the Swan Hatch and bicker with each other through clenched teeth. (Special guest star: Radzinsky, & his wacky sawed-off, double-barrelled shotgun!)
ELLIE: Grrrr! I want to explore the jungle today! You got to do it last week, Pierre! Grrrr!
CHANG: Grrrr! I'm in charge, so you'll do as I say. Now I'm leaving! Namaste!
ELLIE: It's always that same namaste crap with you, isn't it?
RADZINSKY: (trembling, holding his shotgun to this mouth) Th-th-this time...this t-t-time I'm r-r-really gonna do it!
@ studiorose: I too am still curious about Ellie's line "You just couldn't stay away, could you?". At first I assumed that Daniel would time-travel to an unspecified part of the past and meet Ellie then, but you bring up a good point as well. "You" could very well mean his people, i.e. the military.
But if not, then that means that there is still more time-travelling to be had, involving Mr. Faraday.:)
@The Question Mark: LMAO!!!! Gold, my friend, absolute comedy GOLD!
I have nothing to say other than my verification word is..."focksm".
Inappropriate, Blogger, inappropriate.
Yesterday, I got "Irest" as my word
Cute! It's what a tired Ipod says.
This episode was great in so many ways I remember my absolute shock at the revelation that it was Widmore, and the hilarious moment when arrogant Widmore says that he doesn't think the "old man" can track him. How wrong can you be.The latin converstion was also interesting... I can just imagine the otehrs having a evening class after one in manipulating and target practice!
I was also surprised that in this episode Daniel was shown to be the 'bad' guy, leaving Theresa, while Widmore was the saint helping her. Thank goodness we now know what was actually going on. I just can't picture Dan abandoning Theresa out of his own choice. Now we have seen his stae of mind after Charlotte died in La Fleur it's not hard to imagine what he was like after his own experiments hurt Theresa.
It's also interesting to see how Widmore has stepped in, I wondered for a second if he was helping Theresa, his son's girlfriend out of parental duty. However I find it much more likely that he was just doing it to protect himself.
In the scene when Richard tests the young Locke, Locke picks the vial of sand (symbol of the beach or island), the compass (symbol of moving around the island), and the knife. Richard is shocked by this last choice, but it may have been the right choice if Locke is associated with Jacob. When we finally see Jacob, one thing he is associated with is a knife--he uses it when spinning the thread of his tapestry, he uses it again when filleting the fish, then stabs it into the sand beside him. But if richard had been looking for Locke to chose the Book of Laws, that is something more associated with the Temple, which is in the jungle, and associated with MiB. We may eventually learn the MiB's name is Josiah. Just a continuation of my earlier thread.
@Studiorose-I agree with Fred. I always looked at Ellie's remark as a generalization for the US military, where Daniel could've been a scientist with the military to oversee the bomb.
I remember getting all misty-eyed when Des and Pen's young son was revealed to be named Charlie. What a great thing for them to do in rememberance of his friend who saved them and ultimately brought the two back together again.
But then I started thinking, oh no, I hope Penny's father doesn't think young Charlie is named afer him! Aagh! Need to go back to warm, fuzzy thoughts.
Question Mark: Haha!! Hilarious sitcom idea! I can just see the headline now: "Fox Cancels New Sitcom after a New Record 8 Minutes..." ;)
I don't know if you're on Twitter, but there was a hashtag the other day, "#lostspinoffs" and people were trying to come up with spinoffs to the show in 140 characters or less. Mine was "Flost," where Jack and Sawyer become dentists fighting over Kate, the receptionist, with Smokey co-starring as the anesthetist. My other one was "Whole Lotta Locke," about a bunch of guys named after the 18th century philosopher who get together on occasion. The theme would be the Itchy and Scratchy music: "It's Locke and Locke! And Locke and Locke and Locke! Locke Locke Locke! Locke Locke Locke!"
;)
Some of the ideas from other people were brilliant. It was a total timewaster for about an hour before I wrenched myself from it!
@ Nikki: HAHAHA! The Itchy & Scratchy theme was a brilliant idea!
I actually am on Twitter (under AndrewFantasia), so I will definitely look into that spin-off stuff.
Hi Guys
Boy this ship is sailing at quite a significant number of knots. I have sadly fallen a tad behind and are missing commenting on the eps afterwards. I have a few days off over the festive period so will hopefully get back up to speed.
Are really excited about S06 - sorry to slightly hijack comments - I just want to say "Hey" and let you know that I have been lurking around :)
My valiant effort to catch up with comments as the year draws to a close...
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As far as Richard's test of Young John Locke — which Nikki brought up again during her writeup of this episode in FL5 — goes, I still think that he meant what John felt belonged to him innately and wasn't just going by what belonged to the older Locke he'd met.
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I really wish we'd gotten to know more about and hear more from the background characters, for realism's sake if nothing else. Nikki & Paulo were about as vilified as Rose & Bernard ended up beloved, with Arzt somewhere in the middle as kind-of a doofus people liked to dislike, but to me the theory behind introducing the Dreaded Duo was sound. Lost asks us to take much of the fantastic as a given, and it's all right for fiction to do that, but the mundane or common-sense stuff has to be relatable, and for the entire series it's been literally unbelievable that we haven't seen or heard more of the background characters. The analogy that I often use for this kind of problem is that of the old Superman stories where, fine, I accept as the premise that the main character has all these incredible powers and even that he can successfully disguise himself with a pair of glasses and some first-rate acting; however, you cannot convince me that four people make up essentially the entire staff of a major metropolitan newspaper.
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One would think that Charles Widmore must be epically interested in Desmond having been to and returned from the Island, even if he finally wants to respect Penny by staying out of her life, and even if he didn't have anything to do with trying to ensure that Desmond wound up on the Island (a point on which, I believe, the jury is still out). Even with the shock of Des standing up to him and no doubt a desire not to show weakness himself, I was flummoxed over Widmore just letting him go; maybe we'll find out that he's had Des & Penelope under surveillance, but that's no substitute for getting eyes-on intelligence from Des about how things stood when he got away, especially given that as far as I can tell nobody was left to tell Widmore about the Freighter going kablooey or the Island blooping away.
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Verification word: deledl — A deleted dreydl?
Marebabe: I really didn’t know any better about [young Ellie's] accent, because of limited exposure to real live Brits.
Why am I picturing a seedy roadside bar with neon arrows and a flashing sign promising, "Real! Live! Brits!"?
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Verification word: ouctions — The practice among underground S&M clubs of raising money by auctioning off pain to the highest bidder.
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